I've been here at Heromorph for about 2 years now. Seen some really fantastic art by unbelievable artists and some really horrendous stuff as well. I can't once say I've seen anyone give a really honest opinion of stuff that is bad. And I'm not talking about the stuff that is 'Bad Ass!'. For me personally, I like good critiques. Tell me where my flaws are so I can correct them or keep that stuff in mind in my next piece. But lately, I've been seeing some really bad stuff. The kindergarten art or the mindless 3D stuff that someone throws together in an hour so they can post 4 or 5 at a time. I'll be specific, I don't recall the persons name, *****************************

So, I call this topid Taboo. No one says anything bad about bad art.

I expect some protests on my part, and that's OK. Doesn't faze me in the least. At best, I hope this little posting is taken as it was meant, not as a blatant attack on someone.

Heh! Heh! Heh! Heh!

I'll return to this delicate thread later with my opinion but I can anticipate one thing: nice subject!

No, I'm going to agree with this thread. It's like
He who Shall Not Be Named has returned.... those were the days eh? hehe.

I have no problem with this topic being discussed at all in this forum, I only ask that as it progresses that it be kept civil and no specific persons or art are called out as I do not want this to become a thread of personal attacks and defensiveness.

I therefore have slightly edited out the first post where a specific series of art was mentioned.

Please continue...

I used to give honest critiques at Comics2Film, and got a lot of hostility in return. After returning from work on day to find a whole day and nights worth of comments devoted to flaming me, I stopped visiting there. Then some of the members started emailing the flames to me. I think we should stick to insincere flattery.

In all honesty, artists can't grow without critique. I'd prefer to receive constructive critiques rather that "Nice pic" or "Good job" any day of the week. In my opinion, if you don't want to see your work at risk of being critiqued then you have no business posting on art sites.

I would have to say that while I do get miffed at seeing one artist flood a gallery with similarly looking pics, I personally have a problem with the ratings system.

I recently posted a piece that I had spent quite a bit of time on and shortly after going up it received a two star rating. No comment was left to let me know why this was only a 2 star piece of work. In order for this to function more as a community I think the two need to be linked, you can't post a rating without writing a comment and vice versa. Maybe even go an extra step and require a minimum number of art posts to make a rating.

I apologize, that had been weighing on me and I found the board to say it. Just my two cents.

I come at this subject from several perspectives. Freshmutt - I apparently offended someone who has stalked me here for years assigning 1.0 ratings without comments. Needless to say, I am careful about comments. Even though I am a mediocre artist, I don't refrain from commenting on my bettors (sometimes in PM).
I agree with WH thazt the MODs should not censure, but I have long advocated (unsuccessfully) that, as large and diverse "community", we should keep the HM Gallery page open to the most number of artists by VOLUNTARILY LIMITING THE NUMBER OF POSTINGS TO ONE PIC ON THE hm gallery page AT ANY ONE TIME. When your pic falls off the front page, THEN POST ANOTHER. I'm sure I'll get some more stalkers from this.

I had a similar experience to Miss Vee, though not here - at AniMotions. I gave an honest critique of an image that wasn't horrible, but that needed some attention. It was a Poser peice at a time when I was doing tons of Poser work and was considered something of an expert, so I was sharing some tips. The guy went ballistic and proceeded to go through my gallery posting comments on half my stuff saying how bad it was. THEN proceeded to go to Renderosity and do the same thing on my gallery there. From that point until he was banned a couple months later, every time I posted an image at AniMotions, this dick would find a reason why it sucked. I don't post a lot of critiques anymore (and when I do, it's usually at DeviantArt, since I find the members there are far more open to it than at any other art sites I visit), but it's mostly due to lack of free time than being "gun-shy."

If anyone wants me to rip the shit out of their work, just let me know

There's no question that there is plenty of "bad art" on any site that's open to public. The only real way around it is to become a site like Epilogue.net, which requires all submissions to be reviewed by one or more gallery editors before being posted. They have very strict guidelines and I would say 99% of the stuff on Heromorph would be rejected (I've only ever had three images accepted) and because of that, they are constantly being flamed in their forums. It's a major balancing act.

The problem you run into is that the people that are posting in this thread do not fear critiques. It is the people that simply posts art that you have to worry about if they are going to get their feelings hurt.

As for me, I normally try to leave a fair critique. If I don't see anything that really strikes me as "wrong" with the picture, then it gets a "good job" or "awesome". But hey, that is just me.

Now if a image sucks so bad that I don't think there is any help for the artist, then I normally don't comment on them and add that image to the "trash day" list of images that will be deleted when we clean teh site.

Besides, I don't post enough to care if you people like my stuff or not.

I do agree with WH. I didn't mean to make this post about attacks on any given individual and yes, critiquing can be tricky if you're not apt with the gift of writing constructively.

I look forward to all new images. I get notified every time one is posted and as soon as I see the email, I go look at it. What really irks me is the flood of images by a single person. Now, if the images were great, that would be a different story. Here lies the tricky part. What determines great or good or crap. There's the old saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one person's garbage is anothers' treature. Got enough cliches for you? But I digress. When several images are posted that are so similar to each other and clearly looks at though no time was spent on them, there's something wrong.

I'm no expert in Poser or DAZ|Studio, but I've used them enough to know what goes into making something good. My own 3D art is not great. I never quite got the knack of some thing and was unhappy with many other things that I moved on. The same thing goes for hand drawn art. I've spent so many years of my life working on that but never quite got to impressive. Now I focus most of my work on manips and again, I've still got a lot to learn.

So, getting on with it. I look at the flood of new images hoping to see something I can learn from or admire. ODS said 99% that comes here is crap, I don't agree. There's a bit more than 1% that's good. But his point is well taken.

Maybe what MissVee said should be considered. Maybe a limit set by a single user at once should be set.

What say you, Winterhawk? Oh great and wise webmaster?

so far this thread has brought up a number of interesting topics.

First one I would like to mention is the rating system.
When the site first opened and was new the rating system was open to all. you didn't even need to be logged in to the site to comment or rate a image back then also people had the option to rate and comment annonomously so they posts didn't link to their account.
we changed this over the years that only people that were actually logged into the site could rate or comment and this seemed to work better for quite a long time. a few years past and people still didn't like the rating system. so we simply turned it off because of the community complaints at the time.
We started to get a number of complaints from our gold members that they missed the old rating system. so we turned this feature back on for our gold members. After sometime we had a member survey, I am sure a lot of you all took part in the survey, one of the things that was mentioned a number of times was the lack of a member wide rating system. So we simply turned it on for everyone again. Now this was some time ago now and I honestly do not remember what we have the rating system currently set to as I am not as actively involved in this section of the site since we opened the store up but I am pretty sure we still have it open to all. I know as the site owners, we neither care nor mind changing the rating system. but please keep in mind we only have the ability to turn it on or off for certain groups we unfortunately do not have the ability to link it to the comments. Now another suggestion is we can put in a rule that if someone gives you a rating you came make a request to one of the moderators to provide you with the user's name that gave you a rating so you can ask them why via PM or e-mail, as this information is logged in the database. Now this would cause a bunch of work for us and probably end badly for everyone
Now I personally have rated a few images with a 1 since I have been a member here, the reasons for all of these ratings was the image was so bad that I figured it was blatanly obvious why it got a 1 on it. Sometimes I commented sometimes I didn't, and on a couple of occasions the images were so bad (child like and sloppy) I just deleted them and told the poster that they were not ready for HM at this point.

As for critiques, I find you can generally tell if a person is worth the time of a critique after they post 4 images. You can actually tell if a person is trying to improve in that number of images. I am generally very selective on the people I will give a honest critique to at this point of the site. I over the years have had more bad reactions then good reactions. I actually had to Ban a person over their reaction to a crit I gave them, that they even asked for and when it wasn't just praise for their image they went completely ballistic (e-mailing me threats, PMing me threats, posting shit in the forums and my images here and elsewhere, posting stuff on other websites about how big of a ass I am, etc..). I have had a person ask me for a crit then tell me I was making it to be a personal assassination. Not to mention the endless rants about how my EGO goes unchecked because I run Heromorph, or that I did this or do that etc. etc.

I will also ussually give crits in the shoutbox VS. the comments now. I think the nature of the shoutbox is perfect to interact with artists in a way comment never will. That live interaction works much better then a drive by crit that one does in the comment section. One thing that annoys me is when a person asks me for crit after crit and then doesn't attempt to grow or change. Now I am not saying they even have to follow my advise but we have a few artists here that do the same thing, over and over and over again. they never change, they never grow, they never try. yet they ask for crits, you find yourself pointing out the same issues with their art over and over again. like lighting, shading, drop shadows, lack of wrinkles etc. etc. yet image after image they look the same. I figure whats they point in even commenting on the pictures after that.
That said, I think people should put Crit requested in the image description if they want crits on their work, then if you give a crit and the person acts like a jack stick you can just report them to a moderator and we can take care of the dispute. Also a person should give detailed notes on a image they want a crit for, including what you were trying to do, why you made certain choices etc., what you think the good and bad points are in the image. this all helps a person give a better crit.

Thats all I have for now, I have a few more thoughts on these subjects but I will let them perculate a little more before commenting.

Hmmmmm.........

I've been thinking about some of the subjects mentioned on this thread for quite some time and I agree with some of them...

But, let's be fair... everyone needs to start somewhere, so I never expect to see masterpieces from newbies (heck, I'm still learning ), and of course when YOU post something out there, YOU should expect some critics and if you're lucky, some encouragement along with some tips how to improve. I remember when I started posting here, I got people leaving comments with advices on how to improve myself and I really apprecciated all of them. I still do.
The truth is if YOU really want to improve yourself, YOU want comments telling you where your flaws are, ways to make it better and so on. Of course, after a while, if YOU don't show that you want to improve and keep doing the same things over and over again, people will give up on you.
I agree with Hawk, IF you want honest feedback, ask for it and don't get offended if you don't get a " WOW! Great image!" or something like that. I know I won't be offended if someone give me a comment about what's wrong with my images, BUT if you do that, please also say how it could be done better.
There are a lot of people here I respect and enjoy their opinions, but if a dude that never done nothing worth posting, leave me a comment just to say "Hey! this sucks!", my reaction will be "WTF? Show me how you can do it first, Then I'll see if you know what you're talking about."
I think people must realize something:
Fact 1: If you post something, you are exposing yourself to comments, good or bad.
Fact 2: Images of women always get more hits and/or comments. Even if they are a piece of crap, speaking of the author's talent. Heck, just paint a girl green and call it She-Hulk, BAM! you get lots of hits, specially if it's an adult image.
I've seen some really great images here that took a lot of effort to make from some great artists but since there's no hot babes, no comments and low hit score. That's a Fact, folks!
Fact 3: Most members are Lurkers! They don't comment, they don't give any feedback at all, You're lucky if they find how to rate your pic!
And if they do rate your pic, they wont leave you a comment because most of them just look to see if there's a hot babe. If there is, you probably get a 8, if not you get no rate or 1...if you're lucky.
Me...I don't care about that anymore. I do what I do for fun, when I'm done with an image, I'll post it. If people like it, that's great. If not, I don't loose my sleep over it.
That's my 2 cents about ratings, commenting and feedback.

Speaking of overposting, I agree with all that's been said.
BUT...the fact is if there's only one member posting only one image per day, after some time all the front page will be filled with his images, crap or not.
What you guys have to say about that?
We, the mods should have a limit of one image in the front page of the galleries per member? That member shouldn't post any new images until his image falls to the second page?
Ok, let's say we do that. Who wanna bet this site will be without new images in the font page of the galleries for more than a month?
Let's face it, people, good mannipers take their time creating images, they don't rush to post.
The same with 2ders. 3Ders are a bit faster creating images, but even so the great ones also take their time.
Please remember one thing guys, we are a fan site, our members are fans (most of them) and they do what they do for fun, no matter how talented they are.
I don't care about other sites, I care about this one. Since I found it and become a member here, I always felt welcomed here even when I started posting my crappy attemps at manips. Because of that, I like to think I've been improving myself over the time. I have some images here that are pieces of crap, I can't even look at them BUT I keep them here for one single reason, when I see some new member posting some crappy image, I go and look at them and remember how it was when I started.
So...NO, I don't agree we should start censoring bad images just because the wannabe artist doesn't have talent or can't make better than that.
Heck, even a bad 2Der or manniper can have the talent to make a great comic. In fact, just look at some webcomics out there, the drawings are awful but the stories are amazing and make you comeback to know what happens next...

OK, I think I'm done.

Oh, btw, I'm always honest when I comment. I just try to look at the positive things on the images.

You know, If people can't handle critiques they should not call themselves artists. After all, Art grows from critiques. I am still in my rookie year as a Heromorph member and manip artist and I look forward to critiques with every picture I post. If every one just says "nice job" or whatever then my art will become staid and boring as I will begin to feel that I have already achieved greatness when I have not. I remember when I posted my manip of Darkseid's Female Furies (go ahead take a look and see how many mistakes you can find, it's okay), I spent a lot of time on the pic and thought it was perfect until the great OCP gave me his honest opinion on why the pic was not up to par. He let me know what was wrong and he even offered me advice on how to fix it and make it look better. Now I still haven't made the pic much better but I still consider it one of my favorites because it got "critiqued" by one of the best artists on Heromorph and it helped me grow as an artist. Had I never gotten the critiques and advice I would probably not pay as much attention to detail as I do now a days. I would still be posting "rush jobs" instead of taking my time on a pic or to learn from tutorials. I know I have a long way to go to become one of Heromorph's best (it's a goal I will be working on for years) but the only way I can ever achieve that goal is with the honest critiques and advice that can be given to me by the artists at Heromorph. If a pic sucks, tell me why, don't just say it sucks and leave it at that. This site is a great place for us artists to grow and develop our skils and anyone who gets offended by sage advice and critiques should post thier art elsewhere where people can lie to them to thier EGO's contentment. I, myself would rather hear what's wrong with a pic so I can improve as an artist. I promise I won't be offended, after all I am an adult. As for "Kindergarden" art, we all had to start somewhere. Agree or disagree, I welcome all critiques.

Quote:

That's actually not what I said at all. It would be great if you'd actually read my post if you're going to refer to it.

all I will say on this subject (since I think I have addressed it a lot in the past and is in large part a reason I don't frequent HM too often anymore)...is that I would rather look at a bad line drawing, or even a bad rendering than look at a bad poser or manip'd image.

Bad poser makes me throw up in my mouth...and it is rampant. Seeing bad poser in the galleries is like having your friend invite you over to see his new artwork only to find he's posed several of his action figures halfway up the staircase on the landing with props made of shoe boxes and bathroom hosiery.

Bad maniping can be easily as bad (but I am a little more bias and smitten to photo manips), but you know the ones I'm talking about...they basically consist of #5 brush tool, a porno picture and a layer set to 'colour' blending mode ><

there I said it...that is all.

limit poser/manips to maybe 1 image per few days (in main galleries) and unlimited in wip/crit areas. If you're making manips/poser faster than 1 every day (let alone like...20 every day like some people) you are probably totally overlooking something.

The subject of this thread is very strange to me. As a community should we really establish a systematic critique by force on those whom have been singled out as producing ?bad art?? Perhaps we could add to that a posting limit harsher upon those deemed unworthy, as suggested, so as to not offend the elite amongst us. Does that really sound like Heromorph to anyone out there? It doesn?t to me.

The Heromorph I know is a place where great artists are also great people. Where someone new to art can ask for help and get a butt load of it. Where folks can post their work whatever the skill exhibited, and hope for, and receive honest comments. Where moderators promote civil discourse, and fairly apply the rules of the site. I?m glad that Heromorph is the kind of site it is, because I wouldn?t be the artist I am today if it weren?t.

The artistic journey I am on has been enriched by the kind people here (forget the lame-oes), and my own eagerness to improve. Whenever I have asked for a critique here, I have gotten one. I seek them out, and I seek them from people I know to have keen insights, and who understand my artistic voice. But not everyone is comfortable with that, or they are just doing this for fun and may not be as serious as I am. Here at Heromorph, that?s just fine. If they are okay with pumping out the same variation on the three things they?ve learned in poser I am not inclined to give a rat?s ass. Frankly, I have too little time to do much more than scan the thumbnails for images I would want to see. It?s actually rather easy to pick out the stinkers, as well as, the rare gems by the thumbnails.

It all seems quite simple to me. If you do not like to look at art you consider bad, then don?t. If you are really interested in helping someone improve, and you have insights that could actually make a difference, then help. If you are looking to improve, and need some guidance, then ask. If this all seem too fair, and equitable for you to stomach, then avoid Heromorph.

It sounds crazy, but that's only because it is.

ODS,

My apologies. I remembered what you said incorrectly when I posted my reply. Sorry about that.

Thank you BioHaz, I think you said it all.

Quote:

there is definately some validity in that, but to some extent I think there is a bit of waffling in your statement. I think there is an obvious difference between people who are sincerely interested in developing artistic skills and people who are looking for a sort of instant gratification that internet posting can often provide, and it's easier to spam away with no intent to develop or grow.

but to group everything into a highly subjective subset and shun anyone willing to make a qualitative value judgment on artwork that is very obviously not well crafted and that shows virtually no improvement over countless postings is just...well absurd.

If everyone is subject to stringent posting guide lines (say one per day) then nobody's feelings are hurt, and it keeps the galleries relatively clean. If anything it promotes better work, because if you can only post 1 per day, you logically become more conscious about what you are posting, you have more time to develop the work, and as you grow by exposing your own limitations.

And on the flip side, people who do choose to spend more than 20 minutes on an image have the right to not have their hard work flooded out by digital regurgitations. Nobody every champions for the hard working artist, but they deserve to have internet advocates as well.

I'm not trying to be rude or elitist, just truthful as to how I feel towards bad art...and when I say bad art, I don't mean the artist in transition of learning to hone a craft or new medium, but I mean bad as in no real drive or indication of improvement.