I don't think someone said this before so let's go:

This thread, although deliciously interesting, is not going to change anything nor anyone. Bad artists will keep doing bad art and a few of them are going to improve their skills with luck.

The thread only means something to those who, like me, are tired of seeing monstrosities every day. It's like a psychiatric session in wich we can release our demons and frustrations. No "bad" artist will read this. They don't care. Actually I think they don't read anything around here.

I believe that those who can't stand the atrocities posted here should visit other sites where webmasters don't allow them. You know where are these sites. I often visit them and, damn!, they're good! Heromorph does not follow this ideology so... we just need to relax! Let it go.

When someone posts a devious and horrid pic, my blood boils! I know he or she doesn't have the slighest comprehension of what is beautyfulness. Unfortunately, this is my problem! Not his or hers!

I agree with a lot of the points being made in this discussion. But, the bottom line for me, is that I know whose images I want to look at. If someone new pops up, I'll scope out their work for a few images, and if it is consistently crap...they go into the mental garbage file, and that is the last I'll see of them. In other words, I just don't look. It's easy to tell when people are improving, and putting in some effort towards those that chuck out 6 pics after a couple hours. Now I sure as hell don't put myself in the "really good" class. I am continually learning new techniques, and enjoy doing so. But I felt I just had to throw my 2 cents worth in the mix.

Wow...there's a lot to digest herein...

But summing up, since I tend to be rather wordy otherwise, I'll simply say this:

There are those among the people to whom I refer as "Morphers" (artists) here at that truly have earned their "Hero" prefix. These are those that deliver honest critiques, helpful hints and tips, and genuinely try to assist submitters to grow as actual artists. These people have been thanked and appreciated by myself and each other nearly as often as they have offered their insight and comments.
I personally have grown by leaps and bounds in many areas of my own work due mainly to these awesome people who aren't afraid to offer blunt comments on where I am doing well, and where I need mass improvements.
So for me, rather than try to sort through the submissions and divide them into "good" and "bad" art...
rather, I have chosen to look at all the submissions that I can, and pay attention to what's good and bad in each piece. So that I can learn more about how to improve myself.

When I am awestruck by a piece submitted here, I try to comment to the artist in specifics about what they did that impressed me. When I see something that bugs me, I'll ask the artist for their motivation behind it, so I can learn why it bugs me. And if I see a work that makes me think about burning my own eyes out so I don't have to ever see something like it again...I just stop looking.

As Android said, this is my problem...not the artists. Not everyone is going to appreciate every genre or form of art equally. And many people are at VERY different levels of skill. Those that aren't in it for talent development or self improvement may simply be trying to relax after a difficult day at a rough job, or to take their mind off other problems in life with some quick projects. Maybe they don't produce award winning material, but perhaps that's not why they do it anyway. So I'm not going to wish anyone banned or restricted based on motivational factors that I can not know.

I think Biohaz_Daddy said it pretty well, too. Heromorph hasn't seemed to me at all to be a place where anyone should be ridiculed or removed based on quality of work. But instead a great community where many great artists are willing to give honest, sometimes terse opinions along with helpful hints to regular joes like me in order to HELP me become a better artist. I have greatly appreciated ALL of them.

I would only say that if anyone who posts is unwilling to hear constructive criticism or receive advice, then he or she can ask in the title or initial posting prose that no comments be given.
And conversely, those wishing to gain skill and knowledge could ask for any and all comments to be given.
There several who do this with every posting.

And I would think all of us are mature enough to realize that derisive remarks, threatening PMs, and hypercritical comments designed solely to make someone feel bad are completely unnecessary.

So much for a quick summary, huh?

A touchy subject indeed. but in all actuality 'commenting on images here has become a chore'. I used to try to comment on every image i looked at whether positive, negative or constructive. Sadly I rarely comment anymore. Not because i choose not to but the "Taking you Back" glitch really bugs the hell out of me. Not only that but posting in the forums too has become a problem since it only alots you a certain amount of time to work with. It gets tedious when you write a sparkling reveiw and then lose it because of that problem, and contrary to popular belief copying and pasting your comment doesn't always work. so more than often i make my comments as simple as possible if at all. Seems like i remember there being mods appointed to offer critiques and such at one time wayyyy back. What ever happened to that?

I can not condone banning someone because they post the maximum number of pictures in one gallery. Personally, I would like to see these artist(s) take a(s much time as they would spend cranking out images by the hour) and channel that into one single image; experiment and try new things with lighting or unique angles, Shadows etc.. I will offer Critique on images I do it in a way that will not be harsh but simply ask the artist what if they were to try ( insert Questionable critique here) or even make the suggestion.

I will scan the thumbnails and if I see something that catches my eye even from those that post numerous images then I will comment on what I like and make suggestions on little thing that seem off or ask questions about it. IF they chose to work with what I suggest so be it, if not I am not losing any sleep.over it. as an aspiring artist I look forward to and try to implement any feedback I receive in the images I post. If there is art I do not like or find interesting I simply scroll past it to stuff I do like.

As you have noticed I have slacked off a lot from posting lately, but I try to find time between the family and work.

Heromorph is a community for all artist be it "good" or "bad" to come together with a common goal, be it for fun or for business. we all have a love of the art we create be it 2d, 3d, manips, or even the adult content.

Well, as someone who uses Poser, I wouldn't call my stuff "Mindless", although I also wouldn't call myself a true artist as well (although I'm pleased as of this posting that one of my images made it into the "Images of the Week").

I definately wouldn't call 3D users like Yunners someone who produces 'mindless' work, he just has LOADS more skill at both using the program and postworking than people like I do.

All that being said, I would suggest maybe a posting limit for all users, or at least a gallery space limit for 'free' members here at HM, to prevent any abuses of HM's generosity in allowing anyone, despite their talent, to post stuff here.

By the way, I also agree with the "One image per day" guideline; I know that Renderotica (where I often post) has a 3 image per day limit, and that has never been a problem with me.

Edit: Oops, my mistake, there is a 3 per day limit according to the FAQ (guess I never posted enough to violate it )

I thought that we already had a 3 images per day posting limit. I think the problem here is that some people are getting a bit overzealous with their art and either disobeying the limit or posting 3 images each and every day and therefore flooding the galleries before anyone else can get their stuff in.

Wow what a thread!

As someone who is, by my own admission, on the C list around here, I have truly appreciated the critiques and praise I have received. In many ways the critiques are more valuable because they allow you to grow in your chosen genre. The support I have received here has really helped and I have tired to respond to it by attempting those changes in my next image, fixing up, or completely redoing a piece.

When I arrived here I sucked, maybe for some I still do, but that being said I can't see banning someone for craptacular art. Yes some here suffer from artistic diarrhea but as long as they stay within the 3 image limit so what? (We still have a three image limit don't we?) Its not like they are posting Rorschach skid marks from their briefs, although it may seem that way.

A pet peeve of mine is when I or someone else here tries to offer help and is confronted by another series of spastic layer and blending fornication the next day. How do I solve this conundrum? For me it is simple I just don't click on them anymore. Let them jerk their mouse or heaven forbid tablet pen in gyroscopic #5 brush masturbatory strokes and have fun.

My basic philosophy on comments is to do so only on the ones that really strike me, find a cheap way to blame Dar, or tick off Winter (I kid). As far as numeric ratings I rarely give them now, because I feel the need to defend them in writing. If I am going to write a critique, praise, what have you why rate? That is of course my own neurologic malfunction and my doc says finger-painting is just around the corner for me.
Well there are my 2 cents. If you want to send me a quarter to keep them please send check or money order to......

ok, so I haven't read everyone's opinion completely on this page.
So I apologies if I repeat anybody but here's what I think:

First of all Jr's right about really bad art that you just wouldn't know where to start critiquing. But I think that depends on a persons current level of abilities, for me If I find that I am at a completely different level than I may refer someone closer to that persons level because they can help each other better and understand more.

Here's some advise that I want to pass on from other artists I know who have been in the field a LOT longer than I there are usually two types of artists, some exceptions...

1.) Artists with big egos that aren't really that good
2.) Artists with little egos that are very good

most of the time the first type won't take critiques even though to their surprise they really need it. The reason the second type is so good is because they take critiques to become something they consider a good artist.
For example Frank Frezzeta said about his art "I'm not aloud in my own museum because there is always something to fix" I tend to follow that line of thought in the second category. But since it is difficult to tell who is what until after the fact here is my second set of very important and USEFUL advise:

SANDWICH YOUR CRITIQUES! :D
compliment
constructive critique
compliment

Here is how I tend to do it:
"Wow! I really love the detail you did on the face and hair, it is wondrously captivating, most of all the sparkle of life in the eyes. Although the shoulder is too far back and too small, it takes away from the great time and effort you spent on that fantastic face. If you move the shoulder forward and flesh it out the whole piece itself will really pop and match your amazing work. I can't wait to see this grow."

Even if it's only slightly captivating, the wondrous makes them feel good so they know thy are on the correct path. Sometimes I will over-exaggerate so that the critique itself is valued and doesn't seem like that much of a fix, even if I write a very long critique. With that I have never had a negative response, even if they just say they will think about that next time but won't be fixing the particular piece I critiqued.

As for 'bad art' that is difficult. Really because everyone has their own levels and no matter how bad someone is they can get better if they want to. but when there are particular generating programs where the post does not really even have an attempt at being individual or creative and there are many of them. As an artist and for others who are trying or at least make what they do with those programs individual to them, I feel insulted.
Those programs are for people who want and are artistic but have an almost impossible time with producing their own art. It gives them a medium to be creative.
but it is NOT SOMETHING TO SPAM WITH. I am not a big fan of programs like Poser but I do appreciate what it does for some and even the reference capabilities it has and sometimes I see some really amazing work done with it.
yet there are some galleries here that I don't even check anymore, becuase very rarely is there anything different, talent or time oriented.

At the same time I appreciate all the critiques I get not matter the current ability level of the criticizer. I forget who said this in the forum but they are right that "good" great" and "this sucks" don't help anybody. I'm not saying take time to write an essay for every critique but at least say something valuable. and if you can't find something to critique say what parts you like and why. that will let the artist know at least what to continue doing.

And sometimes I do want to write an essay, that's why I have all of Bio, and Mr.A's pieces from this past year stacked up in my deviations at DA. Cause I want to be long and involved and spend the time they deserved.

I know I have more to say on this topic but I really can't think of it at the moment.

~ Kisses
Redd

Quote:

All I read was "kisses". Did you say something Redd?

This is such a good topic here, could be a touch one too. So many have respnded so why not here is what I think in the whole. Quite a few things.

I agree with Redd here, just becuase I like sandwiches... wait not becuase it probably is easier to accept crits if you are surrounded by the "nice" first. Personally while its nice to hear good things about your images, I would rather hear what I did wrong first more so than anything. It will only help to improve your as an artist.

As well HM does cater to every crowd and every one can post and everyone has their interpretation of artwork. If you don't like it I think the don't look rule should apply for you. But be fair and open first. Take a looke you will get used to someones work. So we should disclude everyone. Which is one thing that I think does make the site a "unique" site from others.


Third here I do agree with JR as well, where to begin the comments on bad work is hard. But I guess if you can do even one thing as a helpful pointer and let someone know of where they should start it would be better than nothing in the long run. Least you would make baby steps if nothing else than unloading into someone with both guns. Just some quick thoughts here.

So as a basic rule for myself of sorts, usually if someone post the iamge with title I let the know by commenting if I like something.

Someone specifically asks for crits I say let them have some tips of what is good or bad with the image, no need to blow them up. Then someone who would ask to have their image ripped apart could get the fully unloaded version. While images may not all be the best of images, I admit there are quite a few of them no matter what they look like or don't look like, they have great ideas behind them, can be funny, or amuzing, or give you or someone else inpiration for your own image, ect, ect. So its all good. Well there are my two cents, and I am sure you still got change back after I am done. :)

I'm with Wolverine on this. Critique is something that is vital for any artist's developement. That being said, that doesn't mean that the critic has to be hurtful nor belittling. The goal of critique is to share a perspective that the artist may not yet see in order to help them to be motivated to improve. Unfortunately however, there are some (both skilled and unskilled) who look for opportunities to make themselves feel better about themselves by simply trashing others. Such people make it difficult for artists to take criticism from them -- even if that person may actually have a good suggestion or two. Unfortunately, we cant control whether or not our critics will offer such maturely or whether they will choose to be jerks. However, we would be foolish to simply write-off all critique just because someone(s) offered it in a belittling or demeaning way. Personally, I feel that if you are going to offer criticism, consider first what your goal is in offering it. Is it simply to put someone down or to make fun of them? Is it to hurt their feelings? Or is it actually because you would like them to succeed and improve? And as the one on the receiving end, when someone offers you advise or criticism, ask yourself: Do you REALLY want to improve? Do you recognize that you can ALWAYS get better and that other perspectives are vital for your developement as an artist? Even if someone is being a heartless jerk and saying only bad things, (this is the hard part, guys)try to see whether what they're saying can actually benefit you by applying it. If it doesnt, then atleast you gained a measure of humility by doing so. But if it DOES help you to develope, then you've not only gained humility and thicker skin, but you'll also have added a new tool to your belt, so to speak. No matter what anyone says, dont let unreasonable jerks hinder your developement. If they cant get you to give up by being belittling jerks, they'll try to make you ignore any and every suggestion that anyone offers you. Either way, they'd hinder you from developing. Don't let 'em succeed!Take the suggestions, apply them and grow. As for those who offer no suggestions , but simply say things like your art sucks, pay them no mind and move on to those who really are trying to help you succeed. Best wishes and success to you all.

As an added note, if you're going to critique someone's work you should include some tips to help. Simply putting "Your art sucks and this is why" you should try to be considerate and not insulting helpful not hurtful. Many people here are working in mediums they've never explored before (3D for example) and could use help from those more experienced. In short we're not here to bash other people's art we're here to network ideas and raise the quality of OUR work.

I think the beauty of this site is you have actual pros posting their stuff here alongside complete born yesterday amateurs.

I think that's the combination that's gonna make this site grow and grow over time.

Oh and I think Magnifcent Mechanical Marvel has the best avatar I've ever seen