I maybe shouldn't bother with a reply if Chilly's gone, but for anyone else who's paying attention, I do feel obliged to point out that I believe he's wrong on a couple points.

Again: not a lawyer. I've read enough on the subject to be reasonably confident but if we have any actual lawyers around, I'd be glad for any corrections.

For a start, bringing up trademark infringement is muddying the water. It's fan art, of course it's trademark infringement. What we were discussing is cover flips and manips both being COPYRIGHT infringement (of the copyrights on individual pieces of art, ie comics covers and photographs). And they patently are breaking the law, no doubt about it. Chilly's right about that, certainly. But...

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Not exactly. Fair use is a doctrine that provides for exceptions to copyright (such as, say, the copyrights on comics covers and photographs). Fair dealing is the British name for this. Copying a CD for your own personal use is indeed an example. Quoting the US Copyright Office:

'Four factors [are] considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair.

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.
2. The nature of the copyrighted work.
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.'

My argument is that while manips are indeed copyright infringement, their being nonprofit, substantially altered, and clearly distinguished from the original work means they arguably fall under fair use. Cover flips also arguably qualify, as clear parodies. Now, note the 'arguably'. Fair use is decided on a case-by-case basis, so we can't say with certainty... but if we were forced to defend ourselves against copyright (NOT trademark) infringement, I suspect we'd be able to put forth a decent defence.

...and all that is mostly just background for my further argument that what we do is morally defensible on the same grounds that qualify it for fair use. They're what make it art rather than Photoshop hackwork.

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Not exactly. If it were that straightforward, we couldn't do cover flips either without getting the cover artist's permission. It's a bit more complex: I just looked at the FAQ, and it says that you cannot POST others' artwork as your own. What it says about USING others' artwork in your own images is:

'If you [use] images ... from another artist, you must give credit to that artist in your image description.... If you are using an image from an artist on this site, you Must ask permission... If you can not contact the artist then you are not allowed to post.... If in the images you are borrowing from are just random images from the web ... provide links to your sources.'

I don't believe the Ms Marvel Darque used is from this site, which means he needs to give credit rather than get permission. Except that he couldn't identify the artist. I suppose he could have linked to where he found it (though no one here does that), but I believe using it does not break the site rules.

...and I can't see a reminder of those rules anywhere during the submission process, btw.

I suppose Chilly would say that regardless of these minutiae, Darque's post breaks the spirit of the rules, if not necessarily their letter... but it's not his call to make. It's up to Darque and his conscience, and of course the mods. If they think he's played fair by the original artist and changed enough to post it as his own work, then so be it.

true enough but the way he said it seemed harse and bordered on rude to me its just me but i kinda got put off by it

What I meant by "I know the approach that this person took was civil but there is another way to approach that.?: A PM would've sufficed in informing me that you feel that I was violating some HM rule, I would've then contacted a mod myself to be sure of it. IF a mod felt that you were correct, then I would've had no qualms in removing the piece. Instead, there was a comment to the work for all to see. It wasn't necessary to publically denounce the work in question and make me look bad.

I'm one of the few that have been around before Heromorph was even Heromorph. I know the rules. It isn't necessary to explain them to me. IF I could've given credit to the original artist, I would have AND I was actively seeking this person out and asking for help in doing so. So it's not like I was taking it and claiming that I created the whole thing.

Admittedly, there exists a fine line between following and breaking the rules... but I don't feel I've crossed that line. IF ANY MODS DISAGREE, NOTIFY ME BY PM AND REMOVE THE PIECE IN QUESTION. I'm fine with that.

NOW...
In no way will I be attempting to make this next comment anything less than it is, which would be a personal opinion that may come off as an attack when it is simply an statement made from observation(if we remember correctly, something like this has happened before from Chilly himself)...

Should he decide to leave HM permanently, I for one will not miss him, because frankly, I think he's somewhat condesending and arrogant... and not in a fun way. He is a fairly good artist and I did enjoy seeing his works, but that in no way changes my opinion, which may be a bit biased on account of this bit of drama.

Okay, maybe it was wrong for me to say that, but at least I didn't say it in the way I really wanted to.

Let's see if I can put this topic to rest eloquently...
Heromorph is a place toshare art and have fun. Once we begin to take ourselves too seriously the fun ends and the art becomes less impressive. Here at Heromorph I learned how to manip and my artistic ability was re-ignited, therefore Heromorph will always be a special place to me and to countless others I'm sure. Sure sometimes we may step on somebody's toes from time to time but it is up to thatartist to say "Hey what the f...!" or "S'cool." and we have Mods here who will let us know when we are going too far. One of my very first manips was a character created by Starchild named Alley-Cat. Instead of getting mad at me and spouting on and on about copyright infringements and so forth he actually said he was "honored" that I made a manip of one of his original characters and that comment was the first time I truly felt welcome here. I could be wrong but I believe if the original artist of the Ms.M manip Darqueimages used saw what he did with it, I'm sure he too would be flattered (unless it was Chilly). As for me,I'll be the first to put it out there..."IF ANYONE WANTS TO USE ANY OF MY MANIPS FOR A PIECE GO AHEAD!" After all imitation is a form of flattery and it's not like I'm making any money
off of the manips. I make them for fun and to share with ALL you Morphomaniacs. So ALWAYS remember...Have fun and share art!

yeah i hate to see him go but i hope he can rationalize it himself

Thanks for attempting to put this to rest, Daswook however I want to get back to Chilly's post for a minute before we close on the topic. I gotta say, the guy knows how to make waves
In truth, copyright is an incredibly complex issue and fair usage is something which legally has to be determined on a case by case basis by experts. That chillyplasma presents himself as such an expert on these matters doesn't surprise me terribly. Nor am I terribly surprised that he would spend better than half his posting expressing his typically dogmatic view on the matter and then claim it to be "completely beside the point".
The first thing I want to know is what Chilly means by "people on this website"??!! Every (non-challenge) piece I've EVER seen him post was firmly based on someone else's art. I don't recall him ever crediting the photographers over whose work he built the images and the models had mostly gone uncredited as well. The parts he did add were mostly heavily based on the underlying form, highlights and shadows of the original piece and personally, I don't think his created costumes (based on someone else's copyrighted designs) floating in the air without someone else's work underneath would have much value yet somehow, he appears to feel himself above it all.
On a side note, I am still waiting on Chilly to site his source material from when he stated "(he had) looked up Influence Maps and the first thing that came up was ?Influence maps are a deviantArt meme?." I had asked him for this directly and he ignored me. Interestingly, I have many "first places" that I checked and could not find this reference. I must say that circumstantial evidence appears to be pointing toward a hmmm... how to put this delicately, ...a "manufactured truth." Of course, judging by the tone of his post, he is a man of very high principle so since his account is still active, I hope he will post that address and set the record straight.
That Chilly doesn't know how to talk to people... well, I think many would say that's a given. A man of certain contradictions to my view. Someone who repeatedly stated he didn't want "to put time" into the site and yet one who wants to interpret the rules for the other members. Perhaps moderating is best left to the moderators. Still, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that Chilly had, in fact, expressed quite a few good ideas in the forums. I, for one, hope Chilly does decide to come back, in spite of the fact that I don't find him particularly easy to get along with. As to why he left, I have no idea myself. I hope he does PM at least one of the mods to see if what he found so offensive is something that needs to be addressed. Personally, I can't help but think Chilly was really looking for an excuse to leave here in a huff because he's been asked to create the next challenge and was looking for an easy way out.
So let's not encourage him to leave, let's shine the light on him and see if he ACTUALLY can do better. He sure makes it sound like he can.... and not with some aggrandizing impossible ideas but with reasonable challenges. So come back and show us all, Chilly, how you're going to make HM "relevant" again.

Well I don't know about him, but I would definitely like to see another Hermorph Halloween Team-up Challenge . AND of course, we have our Secret Santa..

Oh chilly... there he goes again. See you in a month or two...

OK, all of you are REALLY over reading this. When we made that rule, it was more for people that go out and steal a manip. For instance... I have a manip on my webpage, Pijon goes to said webpage, takes my manip, and posts it here as his own. SHAME! You can't do that. But we have allowed cover mods for as long as I can remember.
This isn't a copyright issue... it is a "rule among thieves" that you don't post someone else's work as your own.

And I Quote... since some of you have never read the posting policy. Quote:
That really isn't that hard to understand... is it?

So, quit crying about playboy covers and Wolverine covers. The challenge is Cover Flip. They are meant to be funny. And if you find them offensive, follow Chilly out the door. OH, and let me know you are leaving so I can ban your IP. I don't want whiny bitches ruining things here at our awesome site.

Now, Shut your cake-holes and get back to posting.

OH... and good lord... did I mention that y'all really like to discuss the oddest things.... that aren't important. Next thing you will start talking about is if SPAM is a meat product or a veggie human mix. Because it is about as relevant as talking Copyright law here at HM.

All I want to say on the matter is that there is always one person like him on every site on the net. It's as if people like him feel a sense of entitlement with things and in this case it's websites that they feel are "theirs" and others are ruining it for "them." They bitch and moan about how things don't go their way until they make idle threats that they are leaving only to come back again six or seven times and start complaining and making up things all over again. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen this kind of behavior, I'd have no shortage of cash!

well his loss ,lets get on with the fun lol

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Dammit, Jr... yr right... I totally got suckered in by his BS... I would say "well said, Jr" but why I gotta be the one stealing yr images and posting 'em here?! Everyone knows I only post the stuff I steal from you (and Chilly) at DA.
Anyway, as already pointed out by Daswook, Vash, and Jr... let's get back to the point at hand: FUN!
The cover flips were a smashing success (in my view) in spite of some minor humbuggery! Fifty-freakin' four submissions!! The finally tally was one each from Jr, Haz, Magnusch and JMonteiro. 6 from chillyplasma! 7 each from Paul and myself! 5 from B plus his three collaborations with DarqueImages, who (collaborations included) easily topped everyone with 20!!!! Thank you all who submitted... you are all some very funny bastids! I hope you had as much fun as I did 'cause I had a blast! Thanks to those of you who didn't submit but were kind enough to share comments too!
SO what's next? DarqueImages brings up a great point... with Sept. just around the corner, it's about time for Halloween team-ups! Now I have no idea how this works as I've only participated in one as a last minute replacement (though it was quite an honor to work with the very talented CO4). So you guys may have to help me out and tell me how it's set up.